Interview With thatgamecompany On flOw, Nintendo, Sony Support & Much More!

Interview With thatgamecompany On flOw, Nintendo, Sony Support & Much More!

Posted: 03-22-2007, 02:38 PM

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President of thatgamecompany and flOw Producer Kellee Santiago took some time out of her busy schedule this week to answer a few questions for PS3Chat.com.

First of all, could you please introduce yourself and explain what your role is on this project?
My name is Kellee Santiago, I am President of thatgamecompany, and am the Producer on flOw PS3.

How large is the team working on bringing flOw to the PlayStation 3 and how long has it taken to do so?
The core team for flOw consisted of 5 people: myself, a Lead Engineer, our Lead Game Designer who is also a programmer, a Game Programmer, and an Art Director. Over the course of the project we contracted two other engineers and a few artists, for a total of 12 people over 7 1/2 months. Of course, this doesn’t include all of the support we got from Sony and Sony Sound.

What was the initial idea behind the game and who were you hoping it would appeal to?
The initial idea behind the game was Jenova Chen’s MFA thesis from the University of Southern California, Interactive Media Division. Jenova and I were in the same class there and had worked a few projects together, including “Cloud.”

For his thesis, he looked at how Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s Flow Theory could be applied to games, to get players into their zone quicker and over a longer period of time. Chen’s conclusion was an Embedded Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment system, allowing players to determine their experience through the core mechanics of the game. A popular example of this is GTA. Through the core mechanic of driving, you can decide whether you want to complete a mission, what kind of mission you are in the mood for, etc.

So this little Flash game was developed by Chen, Nick Clark, and Austin Wintory, and put on the web to measure players’ reactions. Both Jenova and I share the same goal of wanting to expand the variety of emotions currently available in video games, so the overall feel of flOw was designed to be relaxing, something that not many games have tried.

So, we were hoping to create a game that appealed to a variety of players, a game that would attract new players because of the unique content, but would also offer enough variety to entertain older gamers, too.

How extensive will the differences be between the original game and this reworked PS3 version?
Extremely extensive! We had to remake the entire game from the ground up when we developed it for the PS3. The original game was a 2D Flash game with one creature to play as (a second one was added later). The PS3 game has the same progression, but it is in 3D. You play as 5 different creatures each with their own unique world, and wonderfully rich surround sound that Austin Wintory, who was composer on both versions of the game, just really ran with. Also, I think we addressed a lot of the design flaws in the Flash version that hopefully keep more people for longer periods of time in their zone.

How supportive has Sony been throughout the whole process?
SO supportive. Let me reiterate this point: SO very, very, very supportive. flOw is a very different sort of game, and I don’t think it could have been made anywhere else. George Weising, Rusty Buchert, and John Hight, who were the three people at Sony Santa Monica we were in direct contact with constantly, are just an incredible team of designers and producers that are truly invested in pushing games and experimenting with new content. And for as many publishers that claim to be doing this, these guys are some of the very few that I’ve seen that really are walking that walk. And there is a reason not many people are doing it – it’s freaking hard! When you are working on something new, you constantly have to be explaining it, defending it, and explaining everything again – nothing you do fits into the mould of what people think a game should be, or even how it should be made - and we were so extremely lucky to have our publisher on our side.

And have you come across any issues during the transitional period from PC to PS3?
Oh my, well we had a whole post-mortem at GDC on the topic! But, I guess the general take away is this – when you work on PC, the process of development can be much faster, but you don’t know for sure what kind of PC your player is going to have, so you make a lot of sacrifices to account for many kinds of PCs, or you just eliminate a whole bunch of potential players who might not have PCs with your requirements. With a console, you know exactly what your player is going to have, and this can be very liberating as a designer. You also become a part of a community of people working within the exact same specs that you are. However, your skills then have to become much more refined, tuned for that console. And that goes for every person – art, design, producer, programmer. So, there’s a big transition, but then once you make it, you can really soar.

Has any consideration gone into reworking thatgamecompany’s Cloud for the PlayStation 3 or any other system?
Well, initially that’s what Jenova and I were trying to start thatgamecompany with, so we have put a lot of thought into it. However, we realised that Cloud wasn’t the right game to start with – there’s a lot of work to be done in reworking that game into a sequel. I guess the answer is that yes, we still have all of our old design documents lying around, but we aren’t dusting them off just yet.

Does EA have any say over what happens with any future iterations of Cloud, considering the grant the company supplied to fund the initial project?
EA did not actually supply the grant to the initial project. EA did supply a grant to USC, and USC then created a grant from that money, called the Game Innovation Grant. And yes, if we do a future iteration of Cloud, it is possible, depending on what that iteration consisted of, that we would have to kick some money back to USC for that initial grant. I don’t really have a problem with this, though, because thatgamecompany is founded on the minds of graduates from video game programmes, and we have every intention of continuing to support the academic pursuit of games.

It has recently been mentioned that flOw could have gone to Nintendo’s Wii. Could you please elaborate on why the PS3 was chosen instead?
Haha yeah, I knew we shouldn’t have said that in our GDC talk! I can’t believe how some of the websites just latched on to that one slide, out of the 250 power point slides we had.

But yes, the guys I mentioned at Sony Santa Monica were interested in working with us over the course of a number of projects, and helping us start our company by incubating us in their offices. So, we are an external development studio but we are working in their offices. This is not only helpful by covering our overhead costs, but also because we have daily interactions with some of the most experienced designers, engineers, artists, and producers. We think of it as having graduated from one school, and entering another one, but this time with higher stakes, hehe.

I think the main reason we wanted to bring up the choice in our presentation, was because, at least for me, that was a defining moment in just how crazy our last year has been. In a few months, we went from just two people in a sea of soon-to-be graduates, to having meetings with both Nintendo and Sony at E3. No matter what happens, I will never forget that moment. I mean, how surreal does it get for someone who grew up playing video games?

In the end, what Sony was able to offer us made more sense for our little fledgling company at that time.

Also, despite your three-game deal with Sony, do you foresee yourselves working on the Wii’s Virtual Console or perhaps even the Xbox Live Arcade service in the future?
Oh man, wouldn’t that be something? It’s such an exciting time to be making games, and to be playing them; yeah, I wouldn’t rule out any possibilities.

Talking of the deal with Sony, can anything be revealed or even hinted at regarding the two other games that are planned?
I can’t say anything about them, except thatgamecompany’s focus is on pushing the emotional possibilities of games, and the next two will definitely be in that line.

Has anything surprised you about the PlayStation 3 so far (in either positive or negative way)?
Hm, that’s an interesting question. I am surprised at really how much potential lies in that PS3 box; I have to admit I didn’t think they were going to pull that off. At the same time, I am a bit surprised how much it seems like they are having to relearn even after watching the 360’s first year. That is, Sony is working on developer tools to make working with it easier, but there was nothing before launch. The entire online system from setting up your account to purchasing a game is awkward and clunky. And they are addressing these issues, and in a year things will be looking a lot better. At the same time, if it were me, I would have let the 360 do all my user testing for me and then go from there. I guess Sony just needed to figure it out for themselves.

What are your thoughts on the Sixaxis and the Wii controller? Do you have any particular preference or does each have its own unique positive aspects?
Oh the latter, for sure – each have their own unique aspects. I haven’t developed with a Wii controller, so I only know it as a player. The Sixaxis has incredible precision and subtlety of movement, and you don’t have to be anywhere near the screen or a sensor to use it, which I think will lead to some really interesting game designs. You can also relax with the Sixaxis because it’s more sensitive. The Wii has that comfortable design though that doesn’t scare off my mother, and I really love the speaker in it. It makes people get up and move around, which encourages an active social dynamic. I hate to sound like a broken record, but this is the stuff that makes it so exciting to be in gaming right now! We have multiple companies now trying all sorts of different things. I really hope none of them are declared a “winner” because I want all of them, and more, to keep making different types of games for me play.

What are your thoughts on the recently revealed Home feature of the PS3? And do you think it compares favourably to Nintendo’s concept of the Mii community?
Hm, I never even thought of it that way, to be honest. Home feels so different than the Mii community. Miis are like these little dolls that are fun to play with and share and trade. Home is an entirely different way to interface with your console. I guess that’s the part I latched onto, more than me having an avatar and being able to run around and meet other avatars. It feels like taking all of the XBL features and slapping on this 3D interface, and it’s free, and I think that’s really interesting. I have absolutely no idea how people are going to respond to it, but I’m definitely interested to see how many times I log into it.

With the PS3 starting slowly in the US and Japan compared to Nintendo’s Wii, do you think Sony will be able to catch up and overtake Nintendo in the long-run or is this generation destined to have a different winner this time?
Hah! Refer back to my “no winner” statement. The Wii is much cheaper and it launched with some great games. Of course it took off! For the PS3 to catch up in terms of sales, it will have to offer some very compelling experiences to players, but it seems like Sony knows that.

With thatgamecompany currently being a small team, do you find there is a lot of pressure on you all when having to deliver high quality work on a frequent basis? And with more attention on your company now, are there plans to expand in the near future?
Yes and sort of. I was just talking with N’Gai from Newsweek about the pressure from the media to deliver high quality work. And it’s really from the media. Gamers don’t care as long as you make a good game. Sony understands what it takes to actually make a game. But a lot of game journalists have never made a game. And hopefully this doesn’t sound defensive or offensive, because it’s not meant to be that way. But so many times I have read an article joking about how long it takes to make some of these smaller games like Castle Crashers, for instance. And it’s just like, how can you make that comment when you don’t know how to even program a crossword puzzle on your PC, much less make a compelling console title with only ten people? But some of that is the Industry’s fault. There should be more education as to what we do. A great game with a small group of people can be done in a very short amount of time if all of the art consists of one basic geometric 2D shape. But then are you delivering a very interesting game worth $5-$10? I think small teams right now are all trying to find that balance between wanting to stay competitive with the large teams and wanting to also keep their team small and their development cycle short.

To answer the second part, I think free agency is the way of the future in games. I think more people in every aspect of the Industry will want to operate as a free agent so that they can decide what projects they want to work on. I think this will consistently create better creative environments and therefore create better games. So while we are looking to expand, I am leaning towards bringing on a few more employees, and then working with developers on a project-by-project basis. Maybe I’m wrong, though, we’ll see!

Finally, what have you been playing in your spare time? And what are you looking forward to the most?
I just recently started Crackdown, which is so cartoony in its over-the-top violence it initially put me off, but now that I’m used to it I’m quite enjoying levelling up my abilities and pretending I’m Batman at night jumping from rooftop to rooftop. I’ve also been playing “The Experiment,” a PC game by someone on our forums, and I downloaded it from 64digits.com. It’s... totally weird. You kind of move around these glowing orbs until you are kind of a cosmic maestro. Very groovy. And, not too surprising, I’m most excited for LittleBigPlanet. Who isn’t? MediaMolecule is an awesome team, and they totally deserve the best. I can’t wait to eat that game up!

Article by Adam Riley


Chris PS3Chat Members Posts: 397 Join Date: Feb 2007 PSN ID: Crinkled	03-22-2007, 02:53 PM Thankyou, that was quite an interesting read. I have played fl0w on flash, because people were talking about how great it was... ...I never realised the PS3 version was new! I thought what you got for Flash = what you got on PS3. I might think about picking this game up off the store [OMG]tomorrow[/OMG]!!


jesusraz PS3Chat Members Posts: 21 Join Date: Feb 2007	03-22-2007, 03:37 PM That's such an amazing thing to basically walk out of Uni and be approached by Sony AND Nintendo! looks shocked


Hondan PS3Chat Members Posts: 420 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Somewhere, USA	03-23-2007, 09:29 AM Nice read! I am a big fan of Jenova Chen and his works. rm -rf / PS3 120 GB w/ Kubuntu. Xbox 360 Premium. Wii. PSP


Chris PS3Chat Members Posts: 397 Join Date: Feb 2007 PSN ID: Crinkled	03-25-2007, 01:41 PM I want this game! But fl0w is not on the EU PS Store. Does anyone know when it will be released here?


jesusraz PS3Chat Members Posts: 21 Join Date: Feb 2007	03-25-2007, 01:49 PM It's coming out mid-April, being delayed slightly from what I believe. Worth waiting for, though


Chris PS3Chat Members Posts: 397 Join Date: Feb 2007 PSN ID: Crinkled	03-25-2007, 01:55 PM Mid-April? Ah, thats not to bad. It's nearly April now! Indeed. It will be worth waiting for. I love the flash version, and the ps3 version looks 10 times better!


jesusraz PS3Chat Members Posts: 21 Join Date: Feb 2007	03-25-2007, 01:59 PM In fact, here are more concrete dates: Super Rub-A-Dub - 30th March 30, flOw - 6th April, Go! Sudoku - 13th April, Go! Puzzle - 20th April.


MUNKEYNUTS PS3Chat Members Posts: 8 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: UK PSN ID: MUNKEYNUTS	04-21-2007, 07:45 PM I just got this and i think its amazing


crash1202 PS3Chat Members Posts: 565 Join Date: Feb 2007 PSN ID: Crash1202	04-21-2007, 07:51 PM I wouldnyt like it I didnt klike the flash game bored me after 3 mins The PS3 may be weak now...But the 360 is slipping and we will strike when the time is right...